Clinical Pearls for Esthetic Composite Dentistry: Material Selection, Cutback Technique, Occlusion and More

Welcome to Austin, Texas, and welcome to the Dr. Phil Klein Dental Podcast. Direct composite dentistry continues to evolve, giving us more options than ever to create restorations that are aesthetic, durable, and efficient. But with so many materials available today, how do you know which composite is right for a particular case? When should you choose a universal composite? And where do flowable materials provide the greatest advantage? In this episode, we'll explore how material selection, proper technique, and an integrated restorative approach can lead to highly predictable outcomes in both anterior and posterior dentistry. We'll discuss the cutback technique and how it can enhance aesthetics, the critical role occlusion plays in long-term restorative success, and whether using a complete restorative system from a single manufacturer can improve material compatibility and reduce the risk of clinical failures. Our guest today is Dr. Tiffani Dunn, a general dentist who graduated from the Medical College of Georgia in 2009 and has called Kona, Hawaii her home ever since. She's going to be talking very candidly and frankly about how she does her direct restorative dentistry in her office. She maintains a private practice focused on interdisciplinary care and cosmetic dentistry. Before we get started, I'd like to thank all of you for tuning in. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and even better, leave a review. By doing so, you're not only showing support for what we do here, but your reviews are instrumental in getting more dental professionals to listen and benefit from our content. We really do appreciate it. Dr. Dunn, it's great to have you on the show. Well, thank you so much for having me. And should I say aloha? Yeah, that's right. I mean, we were talking before the show started. I'm talking to the audience now. And Dr. Dunn lives in Hawaii. And I said, man, it's not so bad being a dentist in Hawaii. And her answer was, well, somebody's got to do it. And that is a good point, right? You need dentists in Hawaii. So why not you be the dentist in Hawaii? How do you like it there, by the way? I mean, it's terrible. It's pretty fantastic. I mean, you're talking, we have temperatures that, I mean, barely get up out of the 80s and at night, maybe a high 60. I mean, it's pretty miserable. Yeah, the only thing I would be worried about... myself is a little bit of a feeling of isolation from the rest of the world. And that may be just me. And then that tsunami that I know would, as soon as I move there, that's when it's going to come. Yeah. Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. Just live high up enough up a hill and you'll be fine from the tsunami. If it reaches you, yeah, then the world has way bigger problems if that happens. That is true. But here in Texas, we may be safe from tsunamis, but we get some severe... thunderstorms, electrical storms. And man, you don't want to be outside when that lightning is floating around. So when your time's up, your time's up. To start this podcast, and we're going to be talking about composite restorative, how has your approach to direct composite dentistry evolved over the past, let's say, 10 years? Because I know a lot has changed over the past decade, particularly in how you select materials for different clinical situations. Sure. I definitely think that it's shifted for me as more of a, I have more of a biomimetic approach now. And I think with materials becoming. more reliable when we're bonding to enamel. It's more predictable. And having that faith in these companies that are constantly developing new composites and being able to go to sleep at night knowing that that adhesion is there and that reliability is there. I don't think that I felt so confident maybe about a decade or more ago. But we're there now. So is your practice... focused on preservation of tooth structure, and that's why you find adhesive dentistry so attractive to just your culture and your philosophy of practice? You got it. Exactly. And the majority of my practice is completely rubber dam isolation all the time. It's all biomimetic and maintaining tooth structure. I think, you know, when I went to dental school, which was... coming up on 20 years ago. But, you know, we were taught, oh, gosh, if either there wasn't the materials weren't out there to be able to preserve tooth, you know, it's like, oh, you broke a cusp or two, you know, the adhesion dentistry wasn't totally competent. And at least in my hands, it wasn't. Now, you know, I can sleep at night. Yeah, no, I think that for sure, the advancements in adhesive dentistry. has changed the game towards minimally invasive dentistry, without a doubt. We're removing less tooth structure because we don't need to worry about mechanical retention anymore in most cases. But what's even more exciting, and I know this goes off the topic of composites a little bit, is remineralization and the fact that we can actually intervene in our treatment early on and reverse the disease process. I mean, that is a very fascinating and exciting area of dentistry right now that's really emerging. Absolutely. So getting back to composites, when we talk about universal composites, what does that actually mean in your hands clinically? How do you decide when a universal composite is appropriate for both anterior and posterior restorations? Great question. I definitely feel that the universal composites for me, I aim more towards the posteriors and it's more about the convenience and really more about the patient. So the patient tolerance and just trying to get in and out of that mouth as quick as you can to prevent patient fatigue and holding open. And even though some may not want to bite rest and even though we have them isolated and the rubber dam and, you know, it takes a lot to get there. So speed is a big part of it for me, but the accuracy. as well. So for me, bulk fills are most in the posteriors. And the bulk fill to be able to cure so quickly as well is a huge saver. You're not holding that curing light in there for 40 seconds waiting for this composite to set. So that's a huge bonus with the materials and how they've come. So I hear you using the term bulk fill. So is that a characteristic that is a must-have for you in your universal composite? Well, I guess the shade in my sense, it's the shade factor that comes in with that. I do like a good universal composite for the chameleon effect as well. If I'm choosing that, it's going to be more so if I have to customize a color a little bit more, I'm a big fan of doing cutbacks in that universal composite. So then I can put, you know, a tint or something I might need a stain in there with that universal. So you utilize the universal. as you would a bulk fill, as long as you have that depth of cure. As long as I, you got it, you got it. Okay, so once you establish that your restoration satisfies the criteria for the depth of cure that both the material can handle and your curing light, you mentioned to me earlier offline that sometimes you do a cutback technique. Tell us what a cutback is. Explain to us clinically how you improve your aesthetics with a cutback technique. So for an anterior, and it may not be a universal composite on that, but say I chose my A2 and I'm going for an MILF on a number eight. And I'm trying to not only get it to blend up and over that bevel, but also being able... you know, maybe they have some striations and characteristics in there. So I will a lot of the time place that A2 composite and depending on the depth of how they've fractured it and whatnot I'm trying to achieve, then I will do what we call like a window technique cutback. And you... You basically are taking about two millimeters, maybe a millimeter. It just depends. It's like a fingerprint. Everything's a little bit different. And placing a stain or a tint, or maybe you're putting a little bit of a more opacity of a composite in there, layering that, and then finishing it off with, you can do your universal composite. So how do you prepare the cured universal? when you cut it back once you cut it back you're cutting it back with a burr right right correct like a fine diamond burr very fine diamond burr yes and then how do you prepare the surface taking that away i usually will um re-etch again i don't think you need to do that but it's for my own peace of mind so make sure there's no um you know, bacterias and it's just disinfecting it. And I am a big proponent of the Adhese pen. I love a universal pen for ease. It's just the simplicity in the system. So if you're doing a cutback and you're applying composite for aesthetic reasons to the existing universal, you'll just use, in your case, Adhese, the Adhese Viva pen. But if you're getting back down to tooth structure, then you'll probably re-etch, I assume, and then use the adhesive. Of course, if you go back to tooth, yes, you're re-etching. Now, just out of curiosity, when you repair, you may not have any broken, you may be perfect and you never had a broken restoration. But if some of us, a patient will come back and you're laughing. I know it's an audio podcast, but Dr. Dawn is smiling, basically saying that she does have some failures. Now, when someone comes back with a... universal composite restoration and it's just chipped and then you prepare it clean it up a little bit and you want to bond a new material to it do you use silane sometimes to help bond to those filler particles of the composite that's existing in the tooth When the patient comes in? Unless I'm doing an indirect, I don't. If it's just direct, I will just strictly use adhesive. Okay. Because some dentists mentioned that they use an adhesive, which is the universal adhesive, to bond the two materials. But the silane that comes with the universal adhesive has a shelf life. So depending on how far into the bottle they are. that silane may not be as active as they would like. And some clinicians prefer to have silane as part of that bond interface between old composite and newer composite. It's the filler particles that you want to kind of activate with the silane to help that bond. So from an aesthetic standpoint, how do you approach shade selection and optical blending? with universal composites compared to the more traditional multi-shade layering systems where we use quite a bit of inventory. Now I know you covered that a little bit with the cutback but tell us more about how you do that. Sure. I mean, with the predictability of that universal composite, I mean, I feel like it's a chameleon of being able to, and I know a lot of different companies have theirs and the technology is there with the fillers and the polishability is there. I still do a little dab of a cure on there. I pre-cure to make sure we're kind of in that right mind of, okay, we are going to be able to achieve this optics for this patient. And would I need anything else? to be there. So I am curing ahead of time. I'm actually making a little, a sample. I put it on the tooth in a small thin thickness and watch that chameleon effect to make sure that this particular product is going to work. Which product are you talking about specifically that you like? So I love, I love a Tetric. Power Fill. I love a Tetric Prime. They just work really well in my hands. So I'm familiar with the system and being able to have these products kind of interchange with each other. I know that they marry, they go together. So that gives me that peace of mind as well. And it's just more predictable. Yeah, for me, it's just predictability. So if you're using, let's say, Tetric Prime as your universal, correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm getting these names mixed up. No, that's good. Okay, let's say you're using... prime and then you realize that the color is is not exactly what you want maybe you want to make it a little bit darker just a little bit darker what do you do so there there are ways you can do that so you can do like a cutback technique um you can and if i can't achieve it with that i may end up switching um a universal composite and maybe going more traditional i do have quite a bit of composites in my um in my office as well but um i mean the majority of the time i have to tell you these universals have come so far and i mean not to sound like i'm promoing them but they really do a really amazing job so it i feel like the optics are there so say you're you do have that like a3 tooth and then the next patient is an a1 you know the way that it has that chameleon effect to it i mean it it kind of blows my mind yeah i mean i had a discussion with a dentist not too long ago on this show And they talked about the composite drawer, which had, you know, 20 tubes of composite in it. What do you call the things you inject with? What are they called? Carpules. Carpules. Yeah. Are they called carpules? Okay. Yeah. Okay. I don't know what they call them today, but 20 carpules. They're sitting in the drawer. And this guy's down to one. He's down to one. And he goes, you know, my patients are fine with this universal that I'm using. They're very happy with the aesthetics. was thrown away because they expired and it came to the point where it also was inefficient regarding time. The assistants would, you know, be playing around with this stuff and realizing one was expired and that's not the color that this dentist wanted. And he said, you know, the few cases, the few cases where it's not perfect is not worth having a drawer. I'm from New York originally, and it's hard for me to say that word. A drawer full of composites. So I hope I don't lose viewership because I'm from New York. Although the Knicks are the... The Knicks, I know. How unpopular could be New York right now? I think most of the country wanted the Knicks to win. What a game. I mean, game four was... I mean, even all the way out here in Hawaii, we were cheering for the Knicks. Good, good, good. Then I'm going to have you on the show more often, Dr. Don, without a doubt. I'd love it. So let's switch to flowables for a minute. Okay, now flowables, we know what the reason why we like flowables. They get down in areas and get adaptation. They're a good liner. They're a stress absorber. What do you see flowables playing? What kind of role do you see them playing now with the way we have these composites, these universals? Right. I really enjoy, I like two different kinds. I mean, not to sound super cliche, but I like a high viscosity and I like a low viscosity. And if I'm doing an anterior resin and say I go through all the way down to where I'm starting to finish and polish on that class four on a front tooth and I notice a void. Like, does it ever happen to anybody else? Maybe it's just me. But that's when I pull. I pull for that, you know. low viscosity and i or yeah low viscosity and that's what i want so it can just ooze its way into there and then having that kind of universal flow to match a universal packable composite is so so you're taking so you seem to be taking advantage of the flowable after the fact yes when your rubber when your rubber dam got incorporated into your axial box which never happens to anybody never never who i mean yeah right so you take the rubber dam off and go wow this is beautiful i had amazing isolation but we have a little problem down below here so how do you apply that flowable and cure it so that um i guess you use a sectional matrix with the wedge and the separator i do yes yes i do yeah those are great systems they're wonderful any favorite do you have a favorite system that you like You know, I have dabbled with a lot of Garrison. I enjoy Garrison. I know the system really well. I mean, I'm open to others. I've tried. Clinician's Choice has a beautiful one as well. So, I mean, they're all wonderful. I mean, I just love, I mean, it's so much better than your traditional matrix. The days of trying to get those matrix bands on those little Toffermeyer. Right. Oh gosh. And you work so hard and it's upside down and you're, oh geez. Yes. Yes. I mean, dentistry is a great profession now. I mean, I, I mean, everybody who's older, who no longer practices says that because they always thought, you know, we all think that it was much harder when we practice, but you know, but again, as far as endodontics goes, which I'm an endodontist, we got the microscope, we have microsurgery, we have CBCT. I mean, I went to the endodontist about a year ago to get a tooth treated. And I told the guy, I said, man, I would love to practice. in this era i mean so it does apply to restorative dentists as well um so do you use flowables as liners in any case not i mean i i hardly do i'll be honest i hardly do i i mean that's just not in my what am i what word i'm trying to say it's just not in my yeah thank you It's not in my wheelhouse. That's right. What about if the restoration is fairly deep and you want to just put some protection down there? Right. So I do, I do a lot of, it's kind of this little zinger word and either some dentist, you know, are on board or they're not, but it's an IDS. I'm also Pascal Manier, little, I'm a, I went through his residency. And so, you know, I, I'm a big believer in an immediate Denton ceiling. So that kind of takes the place as that liner. And if you're able to do the protocol, he's a big believer in Optibon FL. So it's your kind of older school style, but it works and it's predictable. It is a primer and then an adhesive. And when you take a radiograph of that, you can actually see where it becomes a little bit of radio opaque. you know you have sealed off that extra deep dentin. Okay, so is that with direct restorative or you're talking about indirect? Indirect or direct. The immediate dentin seal of both. Absolutely. Yeah, because I believe he believes that, and I think it's corroborated among a lot of researchers, that when you freshly cut, dentin is the most vulnerable. And by doing it this way, you're getting the dentinal tubules sealed right away, immediately. Now, if you're doing a direct restorative... following up right away with the rest of the restoration. But if you're doing indirect and it's temporized, there's more time for those tubules to get affected or contaminated, which could lead to sensitivity and ultimately it could lead to pulpal inflammation and who knows what else, right? So you do immediate dent and sealing even on your direct, but then you're going in right away with your bulk fill, your universal composite right after that. Absolutely. So anything I can have and reduce the post-op sensitivity, I'm all in for because I want to be that dentist that gets remembered as, oh my gosh, that was the most easiest thing that ever happened. That was a fast filling and I had no sensitivities afterwards. It's fantastic. Yeah. So what's this Tetrick Power Fill? Is that something that's even fast? Is that speed related? It is. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of that it's kind of that bulk feel fill that you can do in that four millimeter increments. And they also have a blue light that you can set to a turbo cure, which I don't feel confident using that on other composites. But I know that that's kind of there. I don't want to say a patent, but that's there. Proprietary. Yeah, that proprietary thing. You got it. So their initiator works specifically with the wavelength in their curing light. And what is that? Correct. What is that in time as far as curing? Like a four millimeter restoration. What are we talking about? Three seconds? I think it's a three second if I remember correctly. I mean, it's all just preset for me. So I'm like, it is really quick for sure. I want to say probably it is three seconds. Right. So you have the Tetric Power Fill. And what's the power flow? Is that just the same thing as a flowable? Yeah, it's a flowable. It's just a thicker. So when you put it and if you were to just, you know, extrude some, it will kind of pile up a little. So it's a little bit. That high viscosity, it's beautiful. I love that too. Yeah. So one of the things that dentists that I talked to on the show seem to emphasize quite a bit about buying products. Number one, they have to buy from a vendor who supports their products. If they need to call them, somebody's got to get on the phone. Maybe they're lucky and there's actually a dental expert there or even a dentist or somebody who really knows the science behind these products. So they can kind of help troubleshoot. And then the second part of that is that these dentists that I talked to prefer to work with a company, to work with products where the product line is made by the same company. And the reason for that is troubleshooting, number one. And number two. If there's a problem consistently with the material, if they're using an adhesive by one company and then a bulk fill by another company and there's a failure or there's lots of post-operative discomfort and sensitivity after the fact, they could blame it on each other. You know, one company says, well, you're using that material. That's because there's so much shrinkage in that material. Look at the research. Or you're using that adhesive. And that's so technique sensitive that most likely it's not going to really seal off the dental tubules. What is your feeling about that? I like simple. So for me, I'm going, I love systems. And that's what I will most likely gravitate towards. So if I'm going to do that power fill, I am absolutely going to use my Ivoclar adhese. I'm going to use that. adhese pen, which is like a game changer. If you haven't, it's a universal bonding it. I do find that it actually helps with post-op sensitivity as well. It is kind of doing that immediate dent in sealing, but it's in a one step, not a, not a dual. But I. I like to marry products together and it's for that reason. And so say with like Ivoclar, I've been to their facility. I've met their chemists. I've met the dentists that work there. So, I mean, my, the backbone for me, the confidence. it's there and if i have a problem i can just call up and say hey i would really like to or email them because i'm in hawaii right so different timing but and just say hey i need to i need help with this i had a failure which never happens can you talk me through this is what i did how can i you know and knowing their products and they can help you kind of troubleshoot yeah and i think that's really important i had a guy named dr nate lawson on not too long ago. Yeah, he's very well known. He's a PhD in biomaterials, and he's from University of Alabama, Birmingham. He practices there, he teaches, and he does a lot of research. And he made an interesting comment. He said, you know, you could look at a patient, and they have an amalgam in tooth number 30 from World War I, literally. That's how the patient's 96 years old. That amalgam is still, yeah, it's still, it's a legacy from the First World War. And then you got a composite that's been in for six months and it's got staining. It's starting to look like the margins are breaking down. Then he said, he actually made a comment. He said, you know, you got to ask yourself, why did we switch from amalgam? Now, of course, aesthetically, that's one reason. And then the mercury is another and so forth. Right. But some doctors are getting... and years 15 20 years out of composites now the insurance companies are still putting it at five or six or seven years until you can get another one depending on if you accept insurance they'll allow for a new one because they fail so i'm gonna i'm gonna throw some factors at you that typically are reasons why composites fail and then i want you to rate them from one to five five being the most critical and one being You know, not a big deal. All right. So let me give you the factors first and then I'll give it to you individually. Isolation, adhesive protocols, curing protocols, and finishing procedures. So on a scale of one to five, rate isolation. Oh my goodness. That is five being most important because we all know like you get that drop of saliva, it's a done, it's a goner. So isolation for sure. And by the way, what do you do when you get it? a patient who loves to lick their restorations, when you get saliva on there, what do you do after you, I mean, it depends on whether you cured it or you haven't cured it yet. You start over. Oh, absolutely. I have to, because I know it's good. You're going to be back in here. Maybe, maybe you get a week out of it or six months, who knows, but no, you, I mean, you start all over square one. Okay. Next one. Adhesive protocols. That's huge too. I mean, if we're taking out the consideration of occlusion, right? Because that to me is like a big deal. But adhesion, for sure. I mean, they're all going to be up there. Right. Adhesive protocols. I mean, if you don't scrub it in or if you're using a universal adhesive and you're not taking out that solvent, it's still going to fail. So you could give that a five. You can give them all five. I'm just curious. So you would give that a five. absolutely absolutely you have to know the product you're working with too so you can't shortcut you need to like take out the directions and read them right so making sure you're scrubbing that proper some some will say 20 seconds some say 10 seconds so you just have to make sure you're doing that proper protocol curing protocols curing as well yeah i mean well i mean what would you rate that that's the other factor oh yeah curing pro we're still playing jeopardy here curing protocols It's up. I mean, that's another one. I mean, it's up there because you don't want to say, um, you know, you're, you're putting on your turbo for three seconds and you're doing, um, like a, a Tetrick prime as opposed to the bulk fill or, you know, you just have to know your materials and know the proper care. That's going to fail you. One to five, four, or you still stick. Sure. I guess. I mean, it's going to be a five also. It's a hard one. The last one is actually, I want to combine finishing procedures. I want to add occlusion to it, actually. Finishing procedures is the next one, and I want to add occlusion. If you're a COIS person, did you go to COIS's program? I sure did. I'm a COIS graduate. That's why you mentioned occlusion, and he's totally right. Let's talk about finishing procedures, one to five. That's a five also, because you, I mean, you can't have any flash. If you have flash on your, I mean, you're setting yourself up for micro leakage and failure and all, you know, you could just kind of, the staining, the patient's going to complain. So it's up there. Right. So this exercise is pretty much a moot point, right? We're looking at, if you don't, I mean, I guess the message is to anybody who is still listening to this podcast. Sorry about that, guys. We're trying to have some fun here. But no, it's true. The message is that. This profession that we're in and what we have going against us, which is contamination through poor isolation, IFUs that are not, they're not the same across the board for all products. I didn't even mention incompatibility of products. Maybe that would be a three or four if we talked about using one company's adhesive system and another company's composite, right? That might be a three or four, right? I'm not trying to convince you here like leading the jury. Or leading the witness, I should say. I'm sorry, leading the witness. You're not supposed to tamper with the jury. Okay, so now occlusion. What are we talking about occlusion? Can I go 10? Really? Okay, tell us why you think that. You know, it's funny because I always tell my patients, they're like, oh man, you must get really tired of doing, you know, constantly. I said, you know, constantly having to like do teeth. And I said, well, you know, I really consider myself. a bite chaser like i chase bites all day long that is the number one thing i'm doing is analyzing occlusion and if you're occlusion you can make the most beautiful restoration but if you don't know your anatomy and knowing where points are supposed to be hitting and removing those interferences. I mean, you can do the best dentistry you possibly can, and it's going to fail. I think that's a great point, Dr. Don. And I think Dr. Coyce has taught so many dentists about the value of understanding the occlusion when it comes to restorative dentistry. Do you sit the patient up when you check their occlusion? Okay, tell us. Every time. Because I know a lot of dentists don't do that. They go tap, tap, tap. The patient's lying down. That is not their real occlusion when they're lying down. No. Absolutely not. So talk about that for a minute. That's really important. You know, I'll tell my patients, I say, well, you don't have somebody feeding you grapes and laying down and that's how you're eating your food all the time. So we're going to sit you up, even though they might be numb. So some of that, you know, proprioception is going to be off, but it's going to be a lot more accurate being able to hopefully have that joint more where it's supposed to be help with gravity as well. So, yes, I every time set up and it's it is a little bit like a roller coaster going up. and down and up and down. But it's the small things that, you know, it makes a huge difference for long -term success. Yeah, I think that's really important. So I think we covered some really important things here. We're all very happy for you that you are practicing in Hawaii. It's a beautiful place to be. But you know what? When you're in that dental operatory, you know, you probably have a window, right, where you can see ocean? I sure do. Okay, you do. But at the same time, you still... have the stress factors that every dentist has. Even though you're in this amazing place, you know, you still are dealing with the stressors of dentistry. And being in Hawaii does not eliminate that. No, I'm not dismissed from that. Right. So I just wanted to make that clear to everybody that it's not all, you know, we're not, it's not a bowl of cherries completely all day long for Dr. Dunn. Or a bowl of pineapples. Bowl of pineapples, that's right. Any closing... for especially the young dentists who are coming out who are deciding, you know, a lot of times they're in this situation where they're not sure if they should go a direct restoration or go indirect. And, you know, there's a fine line there sometimes. Any advice on that for the younger dentist? Honestly, education. And I think we all come out of dental school thinking we can just tackle the world. I'm going to do all my endo and, you know. When you kind of figure out where, you know, what drives you, what's going to, what's going to, you know, there are people I could care less if I, I'm so grateful for you for doing endo forever. I, I don't want to touch that. I know my, my limits. Endodontists love dentists like that. literally hate doing endo. Oh, I don't want to do that central incisor. I don't want to do that. Like, that's all you. I give you the cakewalk and the hard ones. Exactly. Thank you. Let me do what I'm good at. Yeah. No, that's a good, that's a very good philosophy. Yeah, just finding your education, you know, and be it a Coise or a Spear or a Pascal Manier, you know, and immersing yourself into different aspects of it, but get educated and foundation on occlusion. I cannot harp enough on that. Yeah, Panky Institute is another good place, is it not? Yeah, and Panky as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I hear this from many, many really smart, successful dentists is that they take these courses by these brilliant individuals. I was really lucky to know Dr. John Coyce. He was a pen guy as well, and I was a pen guy. We helped him with his online learning very early in the days of internet -based learning. We set up a site for him, and we helped him with that. But yeah, brilliant guy, and occlusion was always a big thing for him because if the occlusion is reckless, how are you going to maintain your restorations for long term and your perio? Everything's going to go. It's gone. Yeah, it's just havoc. You have to really, and a lot of dentists, unfortunately, don't understand occlusion as much as they should. That's why your recommendation of education, especially on the topic of occlusion, is so important. Dr. Dunn, thank you so much. I hope you can catch some waves today. Thank you, Dr. Klein. I appreciate it. My pleasure. And thank you for listening to the show. I appreciate that too. Yes, thank you, listeners, of course. And thank you, of course, I love your show. So thank you for having me. It's such an honor. You have a great evening. Enjoy. Thank you. Thank you. Aloha.